Curse

jai311 · Jan 04, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Hi guys its my first (long)post here (happy to be a prt of this/ sorry for english).

I would like to comment on an advantage that will solve lots of problems that we have in 6 vs 6 . First of all Spike is a part of the game and there are a hell lot of ways to counter a spike so no point to discuss that . When we had 8 vs 8 people held halls but it was mainly skill and interrupts and not holding builds that we face now days . The main reason i think holding builds dint work in old days was spikes just spike the ghostly hero and its over or spike down any important target some times when there are two teams on you it can be impossible to infuse against two spike groups therefore no team held for long.

Now with 6 vs 6 the spike part of the game is gone . no one takes infuse anymore no more sb and it is easy to hold with wards and defensive spirits which was not possible in the days we had spikes .
What we have to decide is what do we actually want . A game which involves spike builds ( which i personally think is a art or a skill to win with ) or a game with no spikes just because some balance people who cannot counter it find it annoying .

I would say every balance is a spike itself look at gvg world 2 war spikes is still a spike and the whole game is fun with it . The main reason people have stopped playing HA is not only because of 6 vs 6 but the change in builds because of 6 vs 6 . There is no enough power or a good offensive spike system thus the fun characters such as Mesmer that had interrupts and anti spike power are not seen anymore . Its all about direct pressure instead of spike pressure now. Which includes searing flames and other spirit spamming builds . The point is no one will hold halls for more than 2 times if we have spike builds spiking the ghostly . No one can save a ghost if you spike it down even with 8 monks trying to heal it. There are fakes and stuff like that .

Talking about IWAY and other builds that people think are noob . I would say "ITS NOT THE BUILD ITS THE PLAYERS " why does rank 9+ iway win halls but rank 3+ iway never come out of underworld . Its a good build that needs a lot of coordination . For me IWAY for free fame every time i faced it because its just too easy to counter it with wards and if the people in your team do what they are supposed to do . Towards the end of 8 vs 8 there was no real iway 2/10 teams were iway and they were free fame.

The fun in the game is to face new builds to work your brain out and try different stuff with 8 people that you have to coordinate with now that what i call a good strategy based atmosphere but there are no new invention of builds nowadays its all about holding builds + searing flames + spirit spamming pressure . Besides if people think of new builds they never work due to the fact of 6 vs 6 . I think when the developers were thinking of skills and the way they will work they thought of it from a point of view of 8 vs 8 , not 6 vs 6 because that is what they have been doing .
So lets just get the game as it was in 8 vs 8 . Changing to 6 vs 6 actually changed to game play of the game which i don’t think developers want because Guild wars is the Best game Created in Mankind.

There are a lot of pvers that do nothing but farming greens and weapons they have great strategies and stuff but i think there has to be something to encourage the pvers of the game to get into pvp and a good way i can think of is a new arena in which rank doesn’t matter an arena in which everything depends on the leaders of two teams " The Betting Arena "- they put in some cash and items and the winner gets it all . The money can be divided among team or leaders takes it depends on the what they chose . There should be an option of choosing any available hoh map . Then they chose weather its 8 vs 8 or 6 vs 6 and they go in and fight the winner gets the cash and game decides who won so there are no fights. This thing can be randomized also in which people put in 30k or some amount of common money and they get to fight a random team . Just the basic purpose is to bet or just earn straight up money in every battle .It would make the game a lot more fun and challenging and encourage lots of people to play more .

Another great feature that i feel would make people get straight up into pvp is by having a new arena of 12 vs 12 , or maybe have the feature in Betting things i talked above. It was a great concept at the start of factions to have 12 vs 12 fights i agree there would be some serious spam builds and abuse of skills but then there would be a counter build to everything. It would just be more challenging, and if we dont want to abuse the rank system lets not get fame per win it could just be like team arena is . The game is fun when you can expand builds and get the fun from controlling and coordinating 12 people in one team rather than minimizing the amount of players. Every one i have talked to so far says yes 12 vs 12 was completely amazing compared to the 4 v 4 v 4 that broke the coordination between people.

One last thing i would like to suggest that i personally think would get Hall of Heroes to the next level is having real-time competitions for hall of heroes and the structure could just be like the gvg rank system. There can be a hoh rank for each guild and it could be based on the amount of hall wins a guild gets like you get +1 score for each win you get in hall of heroes as a guild and you get +4 for winning hall of heroes. or something like that . Top 32 or maybe more guilds at end of a season get to fight in a special competition based halls in which each team gets to face each and every map and gets to face each and every team and gets at least 2-3 opportunities to win hall of heroes and the best performance or rank gained by guild will get special price or a special hall of heroes cape . I am absolutely sure that the the amount of popularity lost due to 6 vs 6 will come back and there would be 10 districts once again trying to gain hoh.guild rank . But this structure will work better only if we have 8 vs 8 .

Question to Gaile Gray : Is Guild wars really working on getting 8 vs 8 back or are they just rumors ?

Senrath · Jan 04, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

I would like to say I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said in that post. Well, pretty much everything. I'm not really sure if I agree with the part about the guilds, but I don't really care either. I really do hope it goes back to 8 vs 8. I miss those days.

Spank My Woman · Jan 04, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

everyone misses it.. i thinnk anet made it to 6 vs 6 caus of the doubel fame event.. never had HA been so activve.. it wasent caus it was fun 6 vs 6 but because u got so easy fame.. and yes i agree to the post above there with my whole ehart 2.. go ja131 gg nice work.. and pls pm me if gaile gray is making ha 8 vs 8 again ?

Oceans Fury · Jan 04, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

The topic has been beat to death...

In 8v8 there are more builds available to play simple because the extra 2 slots. No rocket science there, right?

I for one actually enjoyed the 6v6 until about a week into it you had a certain number of builds you could run and work effectivly against the other 5 builds out there. There wasnt any variety because people werent allowed to be imaginative because frankly, theyd probably lose. SF, SoMW, Paragon Holding, Dervishes, etc... The list is long, and the scary thing is its growing.

By all means Im not disagreeing with you, I want HA back to 8v8 just as much as any of you. But for those few who sit in GWG Forums and complain all day like Anet bases there decision on how much you complain about a subject is.. childish. Why not just adapt? Why keep posting about the subject? We know a change is coming, we know it has the possibilty to make plenty of people happy.

Basically, stop looking the gift horse in the mouth. We know updates are coming. Soon. So just sit back and let them happen, if it turns out they keep 6v6, then start posting all the "oMfg Gaile and Anet liek pwned my lifezorz GG nubs" you want. *Btw this is not pointing to anyone whos posted in this thread, Im just tired of all the BS in itsself*

A lot of your ideas are pretty contradictory.
This betting arena, for instance, people would simply advertise for a certain rank for their group, thus neutralizing your idea of a rank un-biased arena.

Secondly, I think your a little over zealous with your statement ""I would say "ITS NOT THE BUILD ITS THE PLAYERS " why does rank 9+ iway win halls but rank 3+ iway never come out of underworld . Its a good build that needs a lot of coordination .""

Firstly, IWAY the build takes little to no skill AT ALL to play. The reason r9s won with IWAY (One guild comes to mind, 1+1=?) is because they knew what they were doing with the build on every map. Thats the problems with lower to unranked people is THEY HAVE NO STRATEGY!! Strategy for them is "Warrior go in a smash monks, Monks heal warrior, ranger interupt everything" These r9's won halls and later maps which require a certain amount of strategy becuase they knew there strategy and stuck to it. The people they faced were not flexible enough to altar their strategy to compensate for the high and quick DPS of the build.

Trying to define fun for people in GW is like taking a peice of hay, then putting it back in the stack, then 2 hours later after its been jumbled around, finding that same peice, there are just too many variations of it. Hell, I thought the paragon metagame was fun compared to the current, at least it wasnt a gank contest.

I dont really get your concept of the new HoH, but im tired of people complaingin about having to hold it. The WHOLE POINT of HoH is HOLDING. With holding, no build has an advantage, I dont care if your the holding team. Ill even lay it out for you:

Red: Offensive team (trying to cap)
Strength- you can let your ghost die, you can play the map at your pace, as noone is rushing you (except the timer).
Weakness- You have a time limit as to how quick you need to kill them, while the other team is trying to take out blue, they also may get on you as well if they see the holding team collapsing.
Yellow: Same as Red.

Blue: Holding team-
Strength- you dont have to play offensive at all, you dont have to waste energy spiking, pressuring, just holding or trying to recap.
Weakness- It is VERY hard and takes a LOT of communication for a team to successfully hold defensivly, and play offensivly (exceptions are spike builds).

_Phew, sorry for long post, Im kinda bored and thought I'd get some things out :P _

Lord Natural · Jan 04, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by jai311

The fun in the game is to face new builds to work your brain out and try different stuff with 8 people that you have to coordinate with now that what i call a good strategy based atmosphere...

I agree with this point in particular. I found back in 8v8 it was reasonably possible to construct a build which was capable of facing pretty much anything. Too often now, it's coming down to your build rather than your skill, simply because 48 skill slots is not enough to properly counter everything you're going to face. In recent days I've beaten teams quickly whom I remember always put up a great fight in 8v8. Likewise, I have lost to teams who may have been beatable had we a few more skill slots in our bar.

Any way you look at it, when the game adds hundreds of new skills, and cuts 16 slots from your build, it's going to lower the level of competition. There's still some fun to be had, as a lot of rounds still come down to skill. But it's just frustrating to face a build whom you have little hope of defeating simply because you didn't have room to pack the 2-3 skills which would have decimated their build.

Shane Postus · Jan 05, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Agree to the UMPTEENTH degree. Ive been preaching the idea of betting, or more specifically a "pot" that follows the same idea you depicted. Although mine was a little overcomplicated, yours seems more precise. But yeah, bring back 8v8, make HoH more profitable to the average player/add some risk and reward to spice it up, and the tournament idea i think could bring some very experienced players to HoH. Good post. Good ideas. Good job.

Vorrok Gruntor · Jan 05, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Yes, altar 8v8 needs to come back i agree pwnage speaking

Gaile Gray · Jan 05, 2007, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by jai311

Question to Gaile Gray : Is Guild wars really working on getting 8 vs 8 back or are they just rumors ?

First of all, nice post and thanks for a lot of solid, constructive ideas.

Secondly, the decision on numbers isn't yet made. I posted in another thread, but it doesn't hurt to say again that the design team has not made a final decision, and that many team members will continue to analyze the game and will continue to track your input, as well.

jai311 · Jan 05, 2007, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Thanks Gaile Gray appreciate it really. Thanks for the replies guys.

Just to make a few thing clear this post was made :
1-To talk about the new ideas of betting and luring pvers into pvp to make some cash , 12 vs 12.
2- Some comments on weather a serious Hoh Rank and HoH competition will be a good idea or not.
3- My ideas are not 100% final they are just ideas that need to be thought of and maybe improved upon instead of finding faults from it.

FoxBat · Jan 05, 2007, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oceans Fury

The topic has been beat to death...

In 8v8 there are more builds available to play simple because the extra 2 slots. No rocket science there, right?

I for one actually enjoyed the 6v6 until about a week into it you had a certain number of builds you could run and work effectivly against the other 5 builds out there. There wasnt any variety because people werent allowed to be imaginative because frankly, theyd probably lose. SF, SoMW, Paragon Holding, Dervishes, etc... The list is long, and the scary thing is its growing.

So, there's more and more FotMs popping up, yet there's less variety. Huh?

Quote:

With holding, no build has an advantage, I dont care if your the holding team. Ill even lay it out for you:

Weakness- It is VERY hard and takes a LOT of communication for a team to successfully hold defensivly, and play offensivly (exceptions are spike builds).

Otherwise known as "holding builds."

Bankai · Jan 05, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Thanks for stating my opinion, OP.

Also, personally I'd like HoH to go back to the old 12 minutes, but that's just me.

Also, the only people who will bet are pvpers. Pvers have no knowledge of pvp. They will just have to guess, and since they won't have a higher win rate than 50/50 because of their little knowledge, many of them will quit the betting after the first 2 days.

pigdestroyer · Jan 05, 2007, 10:04 AM // 10:04

I dont think this needs a lot of thinking... there are like 2 god gamn international districts... when there used to be 4+, please go back 8v8, and make broken tower 1v1 again

Makkert · Jan 05, 2007, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigdestroyer

I dont think this needs a lot of thinking... there are like 2 god gamn international districts... when there used to be 4+, please go back 8v8, and make broken tower 1v1 again

Making Broken Tower 1v1 again is probably the dumbest idea I heard in a long time. That would defenitely make Broken Tower live up once more to its name.

Where do people get these outrageous ideas from?
Playing 1v1 Broken Tower gives an huge advantage to the team that caps first, degenerating any battle after the initial cap.

Detraya fullvear · Jan 05, 2007, 12:12 PM // 12:12

simply put.. broken tower was great in 1 v 1... it is VERY HARD to hold for 10 minutes straight. granted, now with 4 minute matches, it probably whould come down to who capped first.

also... broken tower needs to be 2 teams because it was a good chance for new players to learn the basics of the alter match.... allot of people dont know whats going on, and will lose simply because of this. with one on one, it is easier to learn.

FayeWind · Jan 05, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Jai, that's really long. Can you please take some time to read it to me as my bedtime story

?

Gaile, why do you guys decided to change to 6 vs 6 in the first place? I really like to know. And it's hard for me to keep track where your conference is being held. I tried to whisper you before you go DND but ...anyway, will there be a status which shows your current location (example: Faye (Kamadan id1))?

I like 12 vs 12 on beta when 12 ppl are on the list and unlike now where there's 4 ppl in a party list. I like 12 vs 12 because there's a good place for me to practice my melee skills (everyone know I am always playing as a supporter in the backline but I do make and attempt to change and I want to learn something new...so please switch spot with me from time to time and tell me some tricks, greatly appreciated.) 12 vs 12 is hard nowadays for not much ppl play in Luxon alliance battle, so I just stand in Kurzick map for a long time waiting for battle. Is there a way to change that too?

6 vs 6 has it's value but the map inHoH does not seem to work efficiently with the change. I posted my thoughts on another thread so I am not planning to repeat myself here.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...094259&page=27

Etrik · Jan 05, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

That's the one thing often overlooked in 6v6 vs. 8v8 discussions: the fact that 6v6 changed everything, not just builds. It changed the mentality. I don't want to never play a SB/Infuse again

. I loved doing that!

Divineshadows · Jan 05, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

I don't want to never play a SB/Infuse again

. I loved doing that!

Aside from the fact that SB sucked as a skill to begin with (energy cost too high and recharge too long), you will never play SB/infuse again assuming that you actually care about winning. The main reason for this is because of the introduction of Avatar of Grent. Even if this avatar didn't exist, spellbreaker still wouldn't be worth bringing because NF added so many good monk elites that such better choices for every map you play on. Sure, I got at least 30 to 40% of my 3450 fame from running an SB/infuse build. Of course, I used all the tricks while holding halls to maximize the poor performance of this skill like switching out a headpiece and armor swapping for a different rune setup to drop healing prayers and increase divine favor and switching to a weapon set with fast recharge on divine favor spells and 20% enchanting mod. However, I knew all along that SB was a bad skill and longed for having some better elite. Now with Light of Deliverance, Divert Hexes, Zealous Benediction, Healer's Boon, and Restore Condition to choose from, spellbreaker has no place in a 3 monk or 2.5 monk backline (half a monk is any character with half of their bar using monk skills and the other half containing spike assist and utility).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

Making Broken Tower 1v1 again is probably the dumbest idea I heard in a long time. That would defenitely make Broken Tower live up once more to its name.

Where do people get these outrageous ideas from?
Playing 1v1 Broken Tower gives an huge advantage to the team that caps first, degenerating any battle after the initial cap.

Information I posted in another thread in the HA forums, but quite relevant to your post:

It was always stupid to have an altar map this early in the progression. I can see the logic behind changing it to 3 way as this change alone certainly made fame farming much more difficult. Still, it is no fun to face two teams each with multiple copies of AoE spells such as sandstorm or searing flames all getting dumped on the altar while your ghostly happily attacks through all the sandstorms. As the 2nd map in the progression, there hasn't been sufficient time for good teams to beat these bad AoE focused teams on deathmatch and relic run maps. I have not encountered two AoE focused teams on Courtyard.

Broken Tower should have been changed to a straight up untimed deathmatch with an obelisk in the center and had the rez orbs replaced with flags to control the obelisk and morale boosts from holding the obelisk for 2 minutes.

FayeWind · Jan 05, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Now with Light of Deliverance, Divert Hexes, Zealous Benediction, Healer's Boon, and Restore Condition to choose from...

RC is not NF skill if I recall it correctly ^^
I don't like RC for if there's a mesmer who bring humility, RC will be locked.

olly123 · Jan 05, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigdestroyer

I dont think this needs a lot of thinking... there are like 2 god gamn international districts... when there used to be 4+, please go back 8v8, and make broken tower 1v1 again

yes do this, but put it later on in the ranking of maps, as straignt away is a bit to early

Divineshadows · Jan 05, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by FayeWind

RC is not NF skill if I recall it correctly ^^
I don't like RC for if there's a mesmer who bring humility, RC will be locked.

Builds that lean too heavily on an elite skill for condition removal are just funny. A couple other non-elite condition removal skills (or at the very least one) are still necessary. Using RC was always threatened more by the ghostly's distracting shot or a player on the opposing team using distracting shot. Teams that have no counters to an opponent's signet of humility are even more amusing.